Comments on: Aseret B’Tevet http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2006/01/10/aseret-btevet/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=aseret-btevet Wed, 16 May 2012 14:13:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Menachem Mendel http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2006/01/10/aseret-btevet/comment-page-1/#comment-2397 Menachem Mendel Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:53:20 +0000 http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=16#comment-2397 I don't know Menachem. The mentioned hohmat yisrael figures formed their movement in the wake of post six day war amidst messianic fervor. In their euphoria things looked different. When I look at the blessings of the homeland that we have, I see lots of room for tikkun and religious reminders that the redemption is not complete. I can appreciate that from a distance not everyone feels that way,on the one hand, while others especially those hanging around Bar Ilan's coffee room celebrating their sense of redemption or ignoring it on the other may not think they need the reminder but anyone who sees the social inequalities and other injustices that need rectifying cannot help but take the prophetic words about what caused our downfall in the past seriously. M m | 01.10.06 - 6:06 am | # I would agree that there is still lots of tikkun that needs to be done but the question is how might changed political realities influence traditional Jewish observances and liturgies without being swept up in messianic fervor. One does not have to make Tisha B'av into a day of ששון ושמחה (see Zechariah 8:18-19) in order to acknowledge that the reality is different today than it was one hundred years ago. I recall reading David Hartman describing having a conversation with Rav Soloveitchik some time after 1967. Hartman was all excited about everything that was happening and the Rav's answer was to the tune of "slow down, let's wait and see". Menachem Mendel | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 6:59 am | # we waited we saw and things are further from the ideal. You are seeing liturgy as commemoration and I am see it as a mechanism for religious prodding - a reminder that things still need to be done to make things right. The rav is right but I think that there is more reason to fast and be reminded that we are not there yet. I can understand galut Jews not fasting - they don't know what it is even to be a part of the picture but Israeli Jews - I quite frankly don't understand Hartman or Golinkin - Would Urbach think the same way now as he did in 67? Would Falk? m m | 01.10.06 - 5:04 pm | # "we waited we saw and things are further from the ideal"-You are right, but that does not mean that the founding of the state of Israel is not religiously meaningful. "I can understand galut Jews not fasting"-I have trouble understanding those still in Galut who don't fast.They are not the ones who are living in Israel. As to what is/was the personal practice of any of the people mentioned in my post, I have no idea. My last thought is that maybe your are over-spiritualizing a religious observance which has very political overtones. I don't think that the fasts are necessarily about yearning for a Yisrael shel Ma'alah, but rather for a concrete change in the state of Yisrael shel Ma'atah. Just think, Tu B'shevat is just around the corner. Menachem Mendel | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 7:18 pm | # Name: Email: URL: Comment: ? Notify me of followup comments via email Commenting by HaloScan I don’t know Menachem. The mentioned hohmat yisrael figures formed their movement in the wake of post six day war amidst messianic fervor. In their euphoria things looked different. When I look at the blessings of the homeland that we have, I see lots of room for tikkun and religious reminders that the redemption is not complete. I can appreciate that from a distance not everyone feels that way,on the one hand, while others especially those hanging around Bar Ilan’s coffee room celebrating their sense of redemption or ignoring it on the other may not think they need the reminder but anyone who sees the social inequalities and other injustices that need rectifying cannot help but take the prophetic words about what caused our downfall in the past seriously.
M
m | 01.10.06 – 6:06 am | #

I would agree that there is still lots of tikkun that needs to be done but the question is how might changed political realities influence traditional Jewish observances and liturgies without being swept up in messianic fervor. One does not have to make Tisha B’av into a day of ששון ושמחה (see Zechariah 8:18-19) in order to acknowledge that the reality is different today than it was one hundred years ago. I recall reading David Hartman describing having a conversation with Rav Soloveitchik some time after 1967. Hartman was all excited about everything that was happening and the Rav’s answer was to the tune of “slow down, let’s wait and see”.
Menachem Mendel | Homepage | 01.10.06 – 6:59 am | #

we waited we saw and things are further from the ideal. You are seeing liturgy as commemoration and I am see it as a mechanism for religious prodding – a reminder that things still need to be done to make things right. The rav is right but I think that there is more reason to fast and be reminded that we are not there yet. I can understand galut Jews not fasting – they don’t know what it is even to be a part of the picture but Israeli Jews – I quite frankly don’t understand Hartman or Golinkin – Would Urbach think the same way now as he did in 67? Would Falk?
m
m | 01.10.06 – 5:04 pm | #

“we waited we saw and things are further from the ideal”-You are right, but that does not mean that the founding of the state of Israel is not religiously meaningful.

“I can understand galut Jews not fasting”-I have trouble understanding those still in Galut who don’t fast.They are not the ones who are living in Israel.

As to what is/was the personal practice of any of the people mentioned in my post, I have no idea. My last thought is that maybe your are over-spiritualizing a religious observance which has very political overtones. I don’t think that the fasts are necessarily about yearning for a Yisrael shel Ma’alah, but rather for a concrete change in the state of Yisrael shel Ma’atah. Just think, Tu B’shevat is just around the corner.
Menachem Mendel | Homepage | 01.10.06 – 7:18 pm | #

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]]> By: Not So Fast « Menachem Mendel http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2006/01/10/aseret-btevet/comment-page-1/#comment-1968 Not So Fast « Menachem Mendel Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:20:33 +0000 http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=16#comment-1968 [...] of comments, the writer seems to have touched upon a raw nerve (or an empty stomach). Also see this previous post in which I discussed this [...] [...] of comments, the writer seems to have touched upon a raw nerve (or an empty stomach). Also see this previous post in which I discussed this [...]

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