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	<title>Comments on: Not So Quickly&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/</link>
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		<title>By: null</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>null</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 17:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rabbi David M. Feldman in his book book, &quot;Where There’s Life There’s Life&quot; (Yashar Books, Brooklyn, N.Y.) see http://www.jstandard.com/articles/3064/1/The-imperative-to-heal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabbi David M. Feldman in his book book, &#8220;Where There’s Life There’s Life&#8221; (Yashar Books, Brooklyn, N.Y.) see <a href="http://www.jstandard.com/articles/3064/1/The-imperative-to-heal" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstandard.com/articles/3064/1/The-imperative-to-heal</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joe in Australia</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe in Australia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-23</guid>
		<description>I agree that the rabbis did not believe they were constructing halacha. In fact, I think it&#039;s obvious that they were simply recording halacha - everybody knew that Shabbos may be desecrated to save (Jewish) lives. It&#039;s a matter of practical halacha with which most people are familiar. Their problem was justifying the practice in light of the logic that argues against it. 

As for the bit about &quot;subhuman gentiles&quot;, I suspect that you are importing another agenda into this debate, especially when you invoke a line like &quot;jew are called adam and non-jews are not called adam”. If you were familiar with the source you would know that this is another bit of technical legalese, with no relevance to the topic at hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the rabbis did not believe they were constructing halacha. In fact, I think it&#8217;s obvious that they were simply recording halacha &#8211; everybody knew that Shabbos may be desecrated to save (Jewish) lives. It&#8217;s a matter of practical halacha with which most people are familiar. Their problem was justifying the practice in light of the logic that argues against it. </p>
<p>As for the bit about &#8220;subhuman gentiles&#8221;, I suspect that you are importing another agenda into this debate, especially when you invoke a line like &#8220;jew are called adam and non-jews are not called adam”. If you were familiar with the source you would know that this is another bit of technical legalese, with no relevance to the topic at hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Reb Yudel</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Reb Yudel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-21</guid>
		<description>Jim,

Of course you are right. The question is, are non-Jews considered Adam? 

As I show in my above-reference &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.shmoozenet.com/yudel/mtarchives/001826.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;essay,&lt;/a&gt; Rav Soloveitchik was quite clear on that topic: They are. 

Given the choice, therefore, between a positivist conception of a static halacha, or of an ethically-motivated, evolving halacha, it&#039;s quite clear that the latter approach, as detailed by R&#039; Eliezer Berkovits, is of course correct. 

As I understand R&#039; Carmy&#039;s essay, it is quite clear that he is finally firmly advocating the Berkovits position (contra, for example, R&#039; Herschel Schachter.) Given the fundamental role of human reasoning and creativity in the Halachic process -- as enunciated so eloquently by the Rav in &lt;i&gt;Ish HaHalacha&lt;/i&gt; and elsewhere -- R&#039; Carmy wisely chose to write in a style which forces ourselves to reason to the correct conclusion, rather than relying on his authority -- because the Halachic system is one that relies as much on what the Rav calls Human grandeur as it does on individual humility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim,</p>
<p>Of course you are right. The question is, are non-Jews considered Adam? </p>
<p>As I show in my above-reference <a href="http://www.shmoozenet.com/yudel/mtarchives/001826.html" rel="nofollow">essay,</a> Rav Soloveitchik was quite clear on that topic: They are. </p>
<p>Given the choice, therefore, between a positivist conception of a static halacha, or of an ethically-motivated, evolving halacha, it&#8217;s quite clear that the latter approach, as detailed by R&#8217; Eliezer Berkovits, is of course correct. </p>
<p>As I understand R&#8217; Carmy&#8217;s essay, it is quite clear that he is finally firmly advocating the Berkovits position (contra, for example, R&#8217; Herschel Schachter.) Given the fundamental role of human reasoning and creativity in the Halachic process &#8212; as enunciated so eloquently by the Rav in <i>Ish HaHalacha</i> and elsewhere &#8212; R&#8217; Carmy wisely chose to write in a style which forces ourselves to reason to the correct conclusion, rather than relying on his authority &#8212; because the Halachic system is one that relies as much on what the Rav calls Human grandeur as it does on individual humility.</p>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-20</guid>
		<description>A couple of years ago in Lakewood, a yeshiva guy witnessed a shooting on a Friday night and by the time someone called for help the victim was dead. The yg apparently was held by the police for a time because he did not call in the crime. His excuse was that it was shabbos! Obviously, if he had no intention of dialing 911 then he should gotten the hell out of there before the cops arrived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of years ago in Lakewood, a yeshiva guy witnessed a shooting on a Friday night and by the time someone called for help the victim was dead. The yg apparently was held by the police for a time because he did not call in the crime. His excuse was that it was shabbos! Obviously, if he had no intention of dialing 911 then he should gotten the hell out of there before the cops arrived.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-19</guid>
		<description>To be more precise: the offensiveness stems from the very system which the rabbis accepted as absolute not from the way they maneuvered around it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be more precise: the offensiveness stems from the very system which the rabbis accepted as absolute not from the way they maneuvered around it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-18</guid>
		<description>Joe in Australia misses a point by saying that a proof is &quot;needed&quot; to save lives. In the mind of the rabbis they were not creatively constructing halacha but discovering the truth of what God revealed to Moses on Sinai. The fact that this truth considers shabbos to be something that makes jews superhuman and absence of shabbos to be something that makes gentiles subhuman is the crux of the problem. The problem is not that &quot;man was made for shabbos and not shabbos was made for man&quot; but that &quot;jew are called adam and non-jews are not called adam&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe in Australia misses a point by saying that a proof is &#8220;needed&#8221; to save lives. In the mind of the rabbis they were not creatively constructing halacha but discovering the truth of what God revealed to Moses on Sinai. The fact that this truth considers shabbos to be something that makes jews superhuman and absence of shabbos to be something that makes gentiles subhuman is the crux of the problem. The problem is not that &#8220;man was made for shabbos and not shabbos was made for man&#8221; but that &#8220;jew are called adam and non-jews are not called adam&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Reb Yudel</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Reb Yudel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Menachem,

Thank you for your timely look at the halachic sources. However, I think you&#039;ve misconstrued R&#039; Carmy as advocating the worst sort of immoral religious fundamentalism. In fact, I think R&#039; Carmy is making an argument -- albeit esoteric, in the Straussian sense -- on behalf of what you&#039;re advocating, that is, the ethical notion of a meta-halachic ethic as described most thoroughly by Eliezer Berkovits. That&#039;s a rather large claim, I know, particularly for this small comment box; so I refer you to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.shmoozenet.com/yudel/mtarchives/001826.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my blog&lt;/a&gt; where I spell this out in detail. I look forward to your comments there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Menachem,</p>
<p>Thank you for your timely look at the halachic sources. However, I think you&#8217;ve misconstrued R&#8217; Carmy as advocating the worst sort of immoral religious fundamentalism. In fact, I think R&#8217; Carmy is making an argument &#8212; albeit esoteric, in the Straussian sense &#8212; on behalf of what you&#8217;re advocating, that is, the ethical notion of a meta-halachic ethic as described most thoroughly by Eliezer Berkovits. That&#8217;s a rather large claim, I know, particularly for this small comment box; so I refer you to <a href="http://www.shmoozenet.com/yudel/mtarchives/001826.html" rel="nofollow">my blog</a> where I spell this out in detail. I look forward to your comments there.</p>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-16</guid>
		<description>I recall reading a letter in the journal &#039;Ohr Yisrael&#039; where the writer took issue with someone who had attempted to show that traditional Judaism holds that women and men are of equal worth (I have not seen the afore-mentioned collection of essays). The writer maintained (quite rightly) that traditional Judaism does not believe that at all. I would not, however, tell my wife this (smiley).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall reading a letter in the journal &#8216;Ohr Yisrael&#8217; where the writer took issue with someone who had attempted to show that traditional Judaism holds that women and men are of equal worth (I have not seen the afore-mentioned collection of essays). The writer maintained (quite rightly) that traditional Judaism does not believe that at all. I would not, however, tell my wife this (smiley).</p>
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		<title>By: Menachem Mendel</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Menachem Mendel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You are correct in that it isn&#039;t clear that Shabbat may be violated to save the life of anyone, Jew or non-Jew. From the midrash halakhah it seems clear that by then it was already accepted that one violates shabbat to save the life of a Jew and, at least in my opinion, all of the prooftexts that are brought show different attempts to justify this opinion.  I do think that there is a difference between bringing a scriptural proof for an already accepted teaching and what I would call a contextual argument such as eivah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct in that it isn&#8217;t clear that Shabbat may be violated to save the life of anyone, Jew or non-Jew. From the midrash halakhah it seems clear that by then it was already accepted that one violates shabbat to save the life of a Jew and, at least in my opinion, all of the prooftexts that are brought show different attempts to justify this opinion.  I do think that there is a difference between bringing a scriptural proof for an already accepted teaching and what I would call a contextual argument such as eivah.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe in Australia</title>
		<link>http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2007/07/29/not-so-quickly/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe in Australia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://menachemmendel.net/blog/?p=279#comment-14</guid>
		<description>With respect, I think that it doesn&#039;t matter &lt;i&gt;which&lt;/i&gt; particular bit of legal reasoning is used to demonstrate that one may save the lives of Jews on Shabbos. The point is that it isn&#039;t self-evident that one may save the lives of Jews. For this reason the rabbis sought a derash  or other means of halachic proof to permit it. If the proof used is inapplicable to non-Jews then we need a second proof that we may save their lives, too. But  neither Jews nor non-Jews are under a particular disablity; neither is assumed to have rights that transcend Shabbos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect, I think that it doesn&#8217;t matter <i>which</i> particular bit of legal reasoning is used to demonstrate that one may save the lives of Jews on Shabbos. The point is that it isn&#8217;t self-evident that one may save the lives of Jews. For this reason the rabbis sought a derash  or other means of halachic proof to permit it. If the proof used is inapplicable to non-Jews then we need a second proof that we may save their lives, too. But  neither Jews nor non-Jews are under a particular disablity; neither is assumed to have rights that transcend Shabbos.</p>
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